Sep 16·edited Sep 16Liked by Prester John's Revenge
Mel Brooks said it best - "You can't have fun with anything you don't love or admire or respect." I brought that up in a piece I did on the entire concept of artistic "deconstruction". It's really a fascinating topic to me. They can be done well, but I've never seen one that wasn't helmed by a creative who, if they didn't genuinely love the source genre, at least understood the appeal and why it was successful and met the genre on its own terms instead of belittling it (and the fans)... but I think I've only ever seen it be done well in anime. There's probably something about their cultural cohesion and expectations of courtesy in their social structure that keep even a highfalutin, self-conceited creator from going off the rez and turning the deconstruction du jour into their own personal struggle sessions against the fans like Rian Johnson did.
It's interesting you bring up Rick and Morty as well, as I think it's another great example of creatives antagonizing their audience. The show started off as a genuine spoof of various sci-fi tropes but over time has fluctuated between being a mean-spirited and spiteful repudiation of the fandom around it and just lazy, color-by-numbers trash thrown together to fill out a season to meet contractual obligations. I was never much into the show but a lot of people around me were for years and I soaked up a lot through osmosis, and it seems like, after R&M exploded in popularity and the fans garnered a reputation for being... like that, Dan Harmon and Justin Roiland really did not like that the fans were annoying and now infamously so, but also that they liked the more serious, story-heavy elements of R&M instead of the gross-out humor and cock-and-ball joke aspects of it. Ever since they've seemingly did everything they could to punish the audience for the crime of getting invested in a show that they apparently never wanted to be taken seriously, despite having dozens of episodes that are apparently meant to be taken seriously, but actually, the TRULY big-brained fans should have known that none of it was ever supposed to be taken seriously and you're an idiot if you ever thought it was anything other than the television equivalent of truck stop bathroom graffiti.
It doesn't help that Harmon seems to have been going slowly insane ever since Trump took office and Roiland, by all accounts, just seems to be an all-around conceited dickhead.
Anyways, good work on shifting gears. I look forward to see what else you have coming down the pipeline.
Thanks! And thanks for the thoughtful comment. I never cared much for Rick and Morty, but I had friends who did so I saw a decent chunk. I had a similar impression that you did, like the writers both resented their audience but were also dependent on them and fell too deeply in love with their own legend/vision.
Sep 16·edited Sep 17Liked by Prester John's Revenge
I think the movie Shaun of the Dead is a great example of this phenomenon. Yes it was a quirky comedy parodying the zombie apocalypse craze, but it also was a great zombie movie in its own right. It is impossible to get the parody and sincerity just right if you don’t love the genre you are working with. The same could also be said about Edgar Wright’s other legendary homage/parody, the buddy cop movie, Hot Fuzz.
| "Mel Brooks said it best - "You can't have fun with anything you don't love or admire or respect." "
Yes! I grew up with Mel Brooks's *Spaceballs* and not only was it affectionate to the *Star Wars* movies it parodied, but was an enjoyable story in its own right.
This feel like such a timely piece because of the deep, deep dive into Buffy/Whedon fandom I've been doing for the past few months. Going through the official forums and newsgroups and writer interviews. The amount of interactions between writers and fans and outright lies told by writers is pretty wild to look back on. There are "new" fans who are clearly of this new age (the shippers who attack actors for preferring a different ship, for example) but even back in the day writers were accused of homophobia and racism if the story didn't go where they wanted it to, which blew my mind. I think the only reason Whedon got away with a lot of his antagonism is that he was quite forward with it and explicitly said many times that he wanted characters and the audience to suffer. But also, the climate was different in the sense that there wasn't enough hangers on making meals out of these conflicts, which as you rightly point out, is an entire industry these days.
This "Sincerity, not spite, is what makes stories timeless," may also explain why only certain Whedon properties (and more specifically, only specific seasons) have maintained respectable status.
Absolutely! Just like Galaxy Quest, The Orville is a love song to Star Trek. Third season or post-hiatus is rough as the episodes got way too long, but story and character and humor are wonderful.
And they’re way better at being Star Trek than all the new “real” Star Trek.
That was my thought. The third season near the end got painfully bad but I think they were trying to wrap things up. Series finale was great, though. I'm excited to see what they do now that it's been revived
Sep 18·edited Sep 18Liked by Prester John's Revenge
I think Avenue Q is also a good example of a parody that’s made out of affection and not spite for the source material- it would be easy to make something with the premise “Sesame Street BUT FOR ADULTS” nothing but low-effort, epic bacon gross-out shock humor but instead they put effort into making a genuinely great musical that’s both irreverent and heartfelt, and somehow still manages to keep the original spirit of Jim Henson’s work.
Great article. I personally find MacFarland to be totally insufferable like George Carlin, but I do think it's admirable to put out something you believe in. The only problem with him is what he believes is totally wrong and insane haha. For that reason, I respect him much more than the South Park guys whose entire show is just being cynical
After a dry spell in Hollywood, I'm starting to occasionally return to movies and enjoy them. The things that I've watched and enjoyed have all had one thing in common, they seem like they were made by a group of people who like the thing and had a vision for it. Even if that vision is goofy. Even if that vision doesn't have high-minded ideals, I will stick through something entertaining and sincere if it's going somewhere that's true to itself. And enjoy it.
This is especially true with Star Trek, modern trek is so obviously made by people who care nothing for the source material or its original vision its literally impossible to watch. Star Trek: Picard and Discovery have genuinely some of the worst writing and dialogue ive ever seen in a tv show and it was so dissapointing coming from someone who loves old trek shows. Also please please watch Deep Space 9 it's the best Trek show hands down, first season is a little rough but the rest is gold.
Cool article. I bounced off the Orville after the episode in season 1 where they sneak on ship of violent dangerous aliens and it was treated as goofy with no stakes, but I had definitely enjoyed some parts of it.
Speaking of bouncing off things, no love for Andor? A genuine member of the ‘best TV seasons ever’ pantheon, in my opinion, and almost singlehandedly redeems Disney Star Wars.
The weird thing about Disney star wars is that, although some of the creators clearly don’t respect the material, most seem to. It didn’t help though. I think it’s more an issue of overall craft and competence. Tight schedules and management that is deeply uninterested in art lead to generic plots that lean on the easiest kinda of audience pleasing: spectacle and fan-service, without ever having anything interesting to say or characters that are more than cheap tropes. The extent to which Andor knocks character and themes out of the park really highlights what’s missing in even the not-unwatchable Disney star wars stuff.
'Andor' is on my to watch list. I've heard good things but I've not had the chance to watch it. Also not sure if it's worth it to get Disney plus again just to watch it.
Not all Boomers diss those who attend conventions whether in costume or not. Spoken as a Boomer who attended one of the first Stark Trek conventions in 1976. (There was also a store called "The Federation Trading Post" two blocks from my dorm. One could purchase Spock Ears and Tribbles there.)
Just a figure of speech. I love the elder nerds! Funny enough, Gen Z people I know call me (a millennial) a boomer sometimes. Getting old sneaks up on you!
This was a really good piece. I binged all of The Orville when I still had Disney Plus. It was the only reason we still had it. (We don't anymore. Suck it Disney) And while there are stinkers and heavy-handed lecturing it is honestly one of the best scifi shows out there. Although, like you I still prefer Star (Wars)
P.S. Community is a pretty good show too, especially the first three seasons, even if again the politics can be heavy handed.
Mel Brooks said it best - "You can't have fun with anything you don't love or admire or respect." I brought that up in a piece I did on the entire concept of artistic "deconstruction". It's really a fascinating topic to me. They can be done well, but I've never seen one that wasn't helmed by a creative who, if they didn't genuinely love the source genre, at least understood the appeal and why it was successful and met the genre on its own terms instead of belittling it (and the fans)... but I think I've only ever seen it be done well in anime. There's probably something about their cultural cohesion and expectations of courtesy in their social structure that keep even a highfalutin, self-conceited creator from going off the rez and turning the deconstruction du jour into their own personal struggle sessions against the fans like Rian Johnson did.
It's interesting you bring up Rick and Morty as well, as I think it's another great example of creatives antagonizing their audience. The show started off as a genuine spoof of various sci-fi tropes but over time has fluctuated between being a mean-spirited and spiteful repudiation of the fandom around it and just lazy, color-by-numbers trash thrown together to fill out a season to meet contractual obligations. I was never much into the show but a lot of people around me were for years and I soaked up a lot through osmosis, and it seems like, after R&M exploded in popularity and the fans garnered a reputation for being... like that, Dan Harmon and Justin Roiland really did not like that the fans were annoying and now infamously so, but also that they liked the more serious, story-heavy elements of R&M instead of the gross-out humor and cock-and-ball joke aspects of it. Ever since they've seemingly did everything they could to punish the audience for the crime of getting invested in a show that they apparently never wanted to be taken seriously, despite having dozens of episodes that are apparently meant to be taken seriously, but actually, the TRULY big-brained fans should have known that none of it was ever supposed to be taken seriously and you're an idiot if you ever thought it was anything other than the television equivalent of truck stop bathroom graffiti.
It doesn't help that Harmon seems to have been going slowly insane ever since Trump took office and Roiland, by all accounts, just seems to be an all-around conceited dickhead.
Anyways, good work on shifting gears. I look forward to see what else you have coming down the pipeline.
Thanks! And thanks for the thoughtful comment. I never cared much for Rick and Morty, but I had friends who did so I saw a decent chunk. I had a similar impression that you did, like the writers both resented their audience but were also dependent on them and fell too deeply in love with their own legend/vision.
I think the movie Shaun of the Dead is a great example of this phenomenon. Yes it was a quirky comedy parodying the zombie apocalypse craze, but it also was a great zombie movie in its own right. It is impossible to get the parody and sincerity just right if you don’t love the genre you are working with. The same could also be said about Edgar Wright’s other legendary homage/parody, the buddy cop movie, Hot Fuzz.
| "Mel Brooks said it best - "You can't have fun with anything you don't love or admire or respect." "
Yes! I grew up with Mel Brooks's *Spaceballs* and not only was it affectionate to the *Star Wars* movies it parodied, but was an enjoyable story in its own right.
This feel like such a timely piece because of the deep, deep dive into Buffy/Whedon fandom I've been doing for the past few months. Going through the official forums and newsgroups and writer interviews. The amount of interactions between writers and fans and outright lies told by writers is pretty wild to look back on. There are "new" fans who are clearly of this new age (the shippers who attack actors for preferring a different ship, for example) but even back in the day writers were accused of homophobia and racism if the story didn't go where they wanted it to, which blew my mind. I think the only reason Whedon got away with a lot of his antagonism is that he was quite forward with it and explicitly said many times that he wanted characters and the audience to suffer. But also, the climate was different in the sense that there wasn't enough hangers on making meals out of these conflicts, which as you rightly point out, is an entire industry these days.
This "Sincerity, not spite, is what makes stories timeless," may also explain why only certain Whedon properties (and more specifically, only specific seasons) have maintained respectable status.
That sounds fascinating and I'm eager to read it!
Sincerely is the key to most things being enjoyable on a deep level. It’s nice to see that even Seth MacFarlane is capable of honest emotion.
Absolutely! Just like Galaxy Quest, The Orville is a love song to Star Trek. Third season or post-hiatus is rough as the episodes got way too long, but story and character and humor are wonderful.
And they’re way better at being Star Trek than all the new “real” Star Trek.
That was my thought. The third season near the end got painfully bad but I think they were trying to wrap things up. Series finale was great, though. I'm excited to see what they do now that it's been revived
I loved the next generation in the 90s when I first saw it and appreciated it all the way through the beginning of the 2000s.
Today as I look back on it, I can see that it contributed to the degeneracy of what we have now. Everything on TV was for that reason.
I think Avenue Q is also a good example of a parody that’s made out of affection and not spite for the source material- it would be easy to make something with the premise “Sesame Street BUT FOR ADULTS” nothing but low-effort, epic bacon gross-out shock humor but instead they put effort into making a genuinely great musical that’s both irreverent and heartfelt, and somehow still manages to keep the original spirit of Jim Henson’s work.
Great article. I personally find MacFarland to be totally insufferable like George Carlin, but I do think it's admirable to put out something you believe in. The only problem with him is what he believes is totally wrong and insane haha. For that reason, I respect him much more than the South Park guys whose entire show is just being cynical
After a dry spell in Hollywood, I'm starting to occasionally return to movies and enjoy them. The things that I've watched and enjoyed have all had one thing in common, they seem like they were made by a group of people who like the thing and had a vision for it. Even if that vision is goofy. Even if that vision doesn't have high-minded ideals, I will stick through something entertaining and sincere if it's going somewhere that's true to itself. And enjoy it.
I'm just happy to find someone else who's watched Stargate.
This is especially true with Star Trek, modern trek is so obviously made by people who care nothing for the source material or its original vision its literally impossible to watch. Star Trek: Picard and Discovery have genuinely some of the worst writing and dialogue ive ever seen in a tv show and it was so dissapointing coming from someone who loves old trek shows. Also please please watch Deep Space 9 it's the best Trek show hands down, first season is a little rough but the rest is gold.
Cool article. I bounced off the Orville after the episode in season 1 where they sneak on ship of violent dangerous aliens and it was treated as goofy with no stakes, but I had definitely enjoyed some parts of it.
Speaking of bouncing off things, no love for Andor? A genuine member of the ‘best TV seasons ever’ pantheon, in my opinion, and almost singlehandedly redeems Disney Star Wars.
The weird thing about Disney star wars is that, although some of the creators clearly don’t respect the material, most seem to. It didn’t help though. I think it’s more an issue of overall craft and competence. Tight schedules and management that is deeply uninterested in art lead to generic plots that lean on the easiest kinda of audience pleasing: spectacle and fan-service, without ever having anything interesting to say or characters that are more than cheap tropes. The extent to which Andor knocks character and themes out of the park really highlights what’s missing in even the not-unwatchable Disney star wars stuff.
'Andor' is on my to watch list. I've heard good things but I've not had the chance to watch it. Also not sure if it's worth it to get Disney plus again just to watch it.
Not all Boomers diss those who attend conventions whether in costume or not. Spoken as a Boomer who attended one of the first Stark Trek conventions in 1976. (There was also a store called "The Federation Trading Post" two blocks from my dorm. One could purchase Spock Ears and Tribbles there.)
Just a figure of speech. I love the elder nerds! Funny enough, Gen Z people I know call me (a millennial) a boomer sometimes. Getting old sneaks up on you!
Sure does! My apologies for not making my "snark" clearer. I have 4 Millenials of my own and they are just as nerdy as Mom & Dad. 😆
This was a really good piece. I binged all of The Orville when I still had Disney Plus. It was the only reason we still had it. (We don't anymore. Suck it Disney) And while there are stinkers and heavy-handed lecturing it is honestly one of the best scifi shows out there. Although, like you I still prefer Star (Wars)
P.S. Community is a pretty good show too, especially the first three seasons, even if again the politics can be heavy handed.